OVERVIEW
Leo Aguirre’s (Stink Films) films have screened at Cannes and SXSW. He’s worked with Levi’s, Nike, Spotify, and more. His short film ‘El Fuego Detrás’ is in the Texas Archive of the Moving Image.
In this episode of the Musicbed Podcast, Aguirre discusses advertising’s much-needed identity awakening, the cinematic value of diegetic music, and the difference between selling out and buying time.
Show Notes:
- Danyal Niazi – https://www.danyalniazi.com/
- River Tiber “”Hypnotise”” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxJfovIvq3k
- Red Wing Not on Sale (Commercial page) – https://www.danyalniazi.com/red-wing-not-on-sale-2
- Aftersun (2022) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19770238/
- Charlotte Wells – https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3834799/
- Martin Scorsese – https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000217/
- Hannah (2017) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4432006/
- Charlotte Rampling – https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001648/
- Triangle of Sadness (2022) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7322224/
- Y tu mamá también (2001) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0245574/
- Biutiful (2010) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1164999/
- Sin Nombre (2009) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1127715/
- Cary Joji Fukunaga – https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1560977/
- Victoria para chino (2004) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0428017/
- Prisoners (2013) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392214/
- Steve McQueen – https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000537/
- Ian Pons Jewell – https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3230157/
Leo Aguirre’s Playlist on Musicbed
Listen to Leo Aguirre’s handpicked playlist, curated with an understanding of his work as a filmmaker and his insights on advertising, identity, and the power of music in film. These songs are selected to complement the themes and discussions from Aguirre’s interview on the Musicbed Podcast. Enjoy the playlist!
Hear the full playlist on Musicbed:
Episode #010 Transcript
Leo:
I think that there’s an aspect to every project, or at least the projects that might be more personal to me, that deal with the dimensionality of a character. Maybe identity, you know, like, I think that that’s one thing that I really care about. I think there’s a tendency to look at the Mexican-American experience in a very one-dimensional way in the advertising world. It’s like, ‘we want this, like, reggaeton track on it. We want this.’ We have this, you know, subject matter. And it’s been depicted in a very singular way. Why can’t we bring in something orchestral for this and that not have anything to do with reggaeton? There are aspects in that regard that I think are choices that can be made to bring something with a bit more depth. And in depicting an identity or a people’s culture in a different way.
Christian:
Do you feel like you’ll bring some of that experience into the feature world?
Leo:
One that I’m developing now has a lot to do with coming to terms with my identity. Culturally, growing up in Texas, there’s a lot of layers to it. There’s also a lot of layers to the way someone identifies culturally. You might have someone who doesn’t speak any Spanish. And you’re like, what? It’s interesting to me that there are so many things that can can vary from person to person. And I think that in terms of the narratives that I’m trying to explore, I don’t want to make films that are just about the Mexican-American experiences. There are other things that I want to explore as well. But this first film that I’m writing now is about that and the gradient of it. I also feel like your work doesn’t need to be always a reflection of you.
Christian:
That’s a good point.
Leo:
Like, I feel like I’m a complete idiot with my friends sometimes, you know.
Christian:
Just like, making fart jokes.
Leo:
Yeah. You don’t have to always be a reflection of your work. And I think that there’s things that you gravitate towards that might not be, you know. I’ve had people approach me like, ‘You’re kind of dark, like, are you okay?’ There are just things I like to, you know, themes I’d like to explore in my work. And that needs to be always a reflection of you. There’s also things that I think I’ve made that are lighter. But yeah, it’s fun. I had a job recently that was for a client that was really—there was supposed to be like, a lightness to it. But then the client and the agency were like, ‘Oh, we want to make this really humanistic.’ And basically, they looked at my work, and they’re like, ‘It’s really dark. Like, visually.’ It’s like, yeah. There’s a lot of dark imagery. And I was like, ‘Well, you know, there’s like naturalism to it.’ You know, it’s not like every room you walk into is like, front lit and everything. It was just walking this line, the whole job—which I’m sure you’ve had happen before—of like, ‘Is this too dark?’ and it’s like ‘It’s a night scene. They’re like, sitting in their living room.’
Christian:
It’s also such a killer when you bring in an amazing DP that knows what they’re doing and knows how to make things quote, unquote, dark, you know. But it’s still there. And then you get like, over the radio, asked to brighten things up, and you have to just look at the DP and decide. You’re going to like, yeah, go over there and say ‘They think it’s too dark.’ I’m sure you work with incredibly successful DPs, who have done some of the biggest advertising or movies in the world, you know what I mean? And it’s like, it still happens no matter what. Yeah, it never fails.
Leo:
Yeah, I had a job. And I won’t mention who was on it—it’s a DP who I respect a lot. He’s like, one of my favorite narrative DPs. And we were doing this piece, and one of the talent—celebrity talent was just like, ‘I don’t like the way I’m being lit.’ It became like, kind of like an hour-long thing where it was like, ‘Well, there was a treatment. And this is kind of the look for the spot.’
Christian:
Yeah.
Leo:
And you know, everyone else is okay with it. Like, every other celebrity. And then, but you have a DP that’s like, you know, world-renowned. They’re artists in their own right. And I think it’s also your job as a director to kind of say, ‘Hey, I understand that you are contractually—or maybe not even contractually—but you’d like to be lit, you know, front lit with specific diffusion stuff…’
Christian:
And certain degrees—
Leo:
But it’s like, I think that those things need to be discussed beforehand. Because when you get that you’re just talking about your job, like, you get thrown into—
Christian:
Well, that’s the problem is you do discuss it. Like somebody mentioned it to them, like, here’s a look book.
Leo:
Right.
Christian:
And they decide to look at it or not, you know. But they agreed to do it.
Leo:
They agreed, you know.
Christian:
But you’re totally right. Like, I mean, are there any tricks that you have to sort of negate some of those conversations that maybe come up? I do one thing—
Leo:
Where you brighten the monitors?
Christian:
Just brighten up whatever TVs they’re using. Just ask VTR to just crank it.
Leo:
Yeah, great. I mean, you know, the funny thing is that oftentimes, like that information is always there. And like, nobody that’s on that job is there to make this look bad.
Christian:
Of course.
Leo:
And people are vetted for this reason, you know, usually you have agencies and clients or artists approve who’s shooting it for a reason. It’s like, nobody’s here to make this look bad.
Christian:
Yeah.
Leo:
I think it’s just making sure that you’re aligned on the way that this is going to look—immediately very specific with treatments on how it’s going to look.
Christian:
Yeah.
Leo:
And if there are qualms, then you know, I’ll even go further and make like a mood board and say, like, ‘Hey, I’m just bringing this to your attention now. Because this is the look that we’re going for.’
Christian:
Yeah.
Leo:
Everyone’s on board. Cool.
Christian:
Yeah.
Leo:
And then by that point, it’s like we’ve talked about it. I think that’s the way to kind of ease everyone’s mind.
Christian:
Bring me through your step by step. You get a brief in. What do you do first in the treatment process?
Leo:
Well first, I like to ask them, ‘What are you guys wanting to take away from it? What’s your goal with it?’ And I usually like to, before that, because usually you get the brief before the call. And also just jot ideas down just right off the bat that come to mind. And if there’s flexibility for rewrites on certain things, because I think sometimes, you’re so in the advertising world, and I’ve witnessed it from the inside—is you you see how decisions are being made at such a fast pace that sometimes the concepts becoming diluted, because they just want to get it done. So I think that it’s important to come to the table with ideas as well, and seeing if there’s anything that they are open to. And sometimes they’re like, ‘The script is locked.’ And sometimes they’re like, ‘We’re open to a rewrite.’ And that’s always fun. But I’ll have the call. And then usually, I’ll take a few hours to like, just listen to music. And then also just thinking about the first image. Really, that’s like, a thing that I really care about: what’s the first thing that people are going to see when they see this spot? Because I think that we’re so saturated with all the work that we see, you know. You’re on YouTube, and our job is to like take away six seconds of people’s lives when they look up how to patch a hole in the wall.
Christian:
You make it sound so glorious.
Leo:
So you want to you want to present something that’s going to kind of be like, wait a second, what what am I looking at?
Christian:
Right.
Leo:
It’s kind of like, posing a question. I really like the idea of starting projects with an image that that just like, grabs you.
Christian:
Yeah.
Leo:
Because I’ve been that person that’s like, ‘F*ck this, six seconds like, skip it,’ you know, but then I have occasionally been the person that’s like, ‘Wait, what is this?’ Sometimes there’s something that grabs you.
Christian:
What do you can you identify what that is that grabs you?
Leo:
Funny enough, for me, it’s like a sound thing. Silence, or like diegetic sound. When I’m not getting bombarded with music right off the bat. And that’s something that I really—
Christian:
Such a good point.
Leo:
Something that I like to talk to agencies about is like, ‘We don’t have to start with this blaring music because immediately people just like, tune out.’ They’re like, ‘Okay, commercial.’
Christian:
So that’s interesting. Diegetic sound can just be more cinematic in some way.
Leo:
Yeah, I think that’s actually coming back to it. Maybe that’s something that I think I can recognize. And all of my work is like, I don’t like to start with music.
Christian:
That’s such a good takeaway.
Leo:
Yeah. I think that hopefully, advertising is seeing a little bit of an awakening in the sense that people are kind of over it.
Christian:
Yeah.
Leo:
You know, they want things that are real. And that was the thing with the Redwing spot as well. The whole take on it was, you know, when you’re watching a game on TV or something and then Labor Day is coming up, you got like a JC Penney spot or like, something that’s like, ‘This Labor Day, this is the discount.’ So the team came to us and they were like, ‘We want to just flip that on its head.’ And it’s like, just diegetic audio. And we’re literally telling people that we’re not on sale. So they were like one shot and it’s just completely silent. It’s just immersive. And it stops you. Even when I’m home and I’m my grandparents are watching something on TV. Also, my grandpa watches Telemundo, like, the loudest advertising you’ll ever hear. They crank it up. If you hear silence, you’re like, ‘Wait, why is there no person yelling on the TV?’ So I think it’s nice to think about that. When you’re like, that first image, and then also, what you’re experiencing those first few seconds of a spot. So I think about that a lot. I think about how it’s going to open and how you’re going to grab an audience.
Christian:
So when you start writing, where do you usually start?
Leo:
Well, actually, so I like to co-write.
Christian:
Really? So you have like, your person?
Leo:
Yeah, have a person that I like to go to really often. He’s a screenwriter as well. So he’s always challenging me. We’ll get on a call and we will work through it together, and we both jam on it. I think it’s important to have somebody that’s like, ‘That’s cool. But like, what if you did that?’ Like, ‘What if you flipped it and did this?’ I think that that’s one thing that a lot of people might kind of frown upon, having a co-writer for a commercial. And there have been jobs that I’ve written from start to finish. It’s also like a timeline thing, because sometimes he’s not available. And I have to just kind of like, jam on something for 48 hours straight, not sleep.
Christian:
And Stink’s usually paying for him to punch up writing, or is he just doing this as a homie?
Leo:
So he’s not punching it up as much as like, we’re both kind of writing it, but I usually do the punching up. So it’s funny. We’ll talk, we’re on a call and I’m like, ‘Hey, this is kind of what I’m thinking. What do you think about this?’ We’re just bouncing ideas back and forth. And then we’ll work on different sections together, or I’ll do one section, he’ll do another and then I’ll go through it. And then he’s like, ‘Hey, here’s what I was thinking.’ And then I usually have like, a day before the layout is being done, where I just kind of sit with it. And I just go through the whole thing. And I just kind of like tweak and there’s someone obviously always helping with layout. You know, these treatments are like 80 pages sometimes.
Christian:
Yeah.
Leo:
So it’s like, so much work. When I first started with Stink, I was doing it from start to finish: treatment, layout, image sourcing, writing, everything. And then they were like, ‘You can just get help you if you want.’
Christian:
Yeah. And you’re like, ‘I didn’t know that was an option!’
Leo:
So yeah, I think it’s important that you also realize that there are people that are there to help you have a more dialed vision.
Christian:
Especially on your level for sure. Like, using those resources is a game changer. Yeah, you have to use those resources. Let’s name some names. Who are some of your favorite DPs that you get to work with? Homies, older ones, younger ones.
Leo:
I love to work with—he’s one of my best friends as well—Danyal Niazi. He did the River Tiber video. He did the Red Wing spot, as well.
Christian:
Cool.
Leo:
We’ve been able to work together and just like also, you know, we’re such good friends that there’s such a shorthand. We can disagree about stuff and then we’ll fight a little bit but it’s always in the spirit of, you know, like—
Christian:
Making something great.
Leo:
Yeah. And we will watch movies. Sometimes he’ll come over and I’m like, ‘Let’s watch Black Swan or something. And then we end up watching like two movies. Or watch a Kiarostami movie. He’s great.
Christian:
Well, what do you go in with, to a scene? You’ve scouted it, people are coming off the truck. What are the things that you say first?
Leo:
I usually try to be pretty dialed about what we’re shooting, like to storyboard, pretty specific. So it’s on the scouts, I bring my camera and they’ll bring theirs. And like, we’re both shooting frames. And then we’ll like talk about what we’re thinking about, essentially distilling everything that we’ve looked at independently. And then seeing what is the best option. What is the thing that we liked the most. And that’s how I work with everyone. I think every DP I’ve been very lucky, very fortunate to work with DPs that I’ve really enjoyed. But you also want to be the stupidest person in the room.
Christian:
Yeah?
Leo:
That’s kind of like a philosophy and that’s been really important for me is having everyone that’s around you be way better at what they do than you. Like, I could think that I’m a better DP. But I know that there are people that are way more talented than me at that. And if I think that I’m the best person in the room, then I think that projects are only going to be as good as me. That’s advice that I got from a friend a while back. He was like, ‘You want to make sure that you’re working with people that are going to like elevate the project way beyond any way that you thought you could elevate it yourself. If you’re making every decision, you need people that are like, ‘I feel like this wallpaper is not going to work.’
Christian:
Yeah.
Leo:
‘I think you should really think about this.’ And I think that that’s been really, really great about working with with you and with production designers that are like pushing you.
Christian:
Well, let’s talk about features real quick. How far away are you from diving into your first feature?
Leo:
The goal is to have a full first draft of this by the end of next month. I feel good about where it’s headed. I think that sometimes I’ve had some false starts with some ideas before. That’s funny, because I think that the gestation process is you kind of find something that you really like, and that you want to explore. And then you kind of get like 20 pages in. And then you’re like, ‘F*ck, I—’
Christian:
This little thing.
Leo:
Yeah. But then you come back to it. And then you’re like, ‘Oh, I figured out a way to get around it.’
Christian:
I think that should almost be a mandatory thing. Like, I have a co-writer that I work with. And every single time we finish something, we put it away for, like—some things we put away for six months. And then we come back to and you’re like, This is sh*t, but I know how to fix it.’ You just see it very clearly.
Leo:
Yeah, you need space from it. And I think that’s what I’m learning. I usually try to go like New York Film Festival screenings. We went to go see Aftersun. And Charlotte Wells was talking about how she failed to write this movie for like, years. She said it was really important for her to fail to write this movie for a while because [she was] also doing other things with [her] life. You’re not just writing a movie, right? And it’s really important to procrastinate with other forms of expression, I think. Like if you play music, or like if you do other things. So I’ve been trying to be more forgiving about that. It’s really easy to like rush, to be like, ‘I’m gonna get this first feature done. I want to get this first feature done.’ But because it is a deeply personal story—not so much so, in like that it’s something that happened to me— but because of where I grew up, and because of the subject matter. My mom works in an immigration center. The story—basically it takes place over the summer in south Texas. And it’s about a kid who’s forced to share a room with a migrant child that they’re fostering. And they’re both the same age, but the main character is Mexican-American. So you have this aspect of you know, if you’re first generation, your relationship with your native country is maybe more detached. And then you think it’s a lot to process because I think a lot of it I’m taking from my family life from home. And my parents—my parents were very traditional in the sense that they didn’t want me to do film, stuff like that.
Christian:
Yeah.
Leo:
So there are things that I think I’m taking away and I think it’s hard because you’re processing a lot. You’re like almost going through therapy when you’re writing, a lot of the time.
Christian:
The most creative is the most personal. You know, I think that was [Martin] Scorsese—I think that’s what he said.
Leo:
Yeah. I think it’s nice. It’s true to take liberties, right? You take liberties with certain things, but I think that if you’re feeling that it’s personal to you, I think that it’s sometimes easier, and sometimes can be really hard.
Christian:
Yeah. Especially if you don’t want to be personal in something. But it kind of forces you to be.
Leo:
Yeah. it’s a mirror. Yeah.
Christian:
I love being reminded with certain films that it has a creator behind it. I love films like, you can see the making of it, you know. For someone like me, when I feel you know, someone’s energy in the movie, I connect with it so much harder, You know? Those are my favorite movies.
Leo:
Yeah. What’s something you’ve seen lately? When you’re like, ‘Damn, like that was really good’?
Christian:
This movie called Hannah with Charlotte Rampling kind of devastated me.
Leo:
I’ve heard of it. I haven’t seen it.
Christian:
Yeah. Also, you know, Triangle Of Sadness was very, very, good. But I have certain movies that I would rewatch to like, capture that again. Yeah.
Leo:
Which ones do you watch?
Christian:
Y tu mamá también.
Leo:
Oh, I have a poster of Y tu my bedroom. It’s a great f*cking movie.
Christian:
Like, Biutiful. Iñárritu’s Biutiful. Sin Nombre is another one.
Leo:
Sin Nombre‘s Great. That’s Cary Fukunaga’s first, I think. Have you seen the short, Victoria Para Chino? Before that?
Christian:
No. But when I watched Sin Nombre, I’m like, this is an impossible movie to make. Yeah. On top of the train, physically moving.
Leo:
Yeah.
Christian:
It’s not like, some tricks?
Leo:
They did some stuff with some semi-trailers where they’re pulling—
Christian:
They’re pulling? It looks like it’s going so fast.
Leo:
Yeah, it’s crazy.
Christian:
I think Prisoners is another one of those. There’s people that I just feel like, these are my people, like Steve McQueen. You know, but they tend to be more serious movies. But there’s a lot of them in it. You know, these people who are able to put themselves into every scene. You know, it’s magic. I get obsessed. I am obsessed with it. I’m sure you are, too. What are yours?
Leo:
Y tu mamá también. is like such a powerful—
Christian:
You say it much better than I do.
Leo:
You got it. It’s funny, because I learned recently they also came they did a lot of advertising before they made movies.
Christian:
It’s funny how those histories kind of disappear from the lore. You know, I don’t know how they cover that stuff up.
Leo:
You see their commercials? Their commercials are great. They had some cool commercials. I mean, yeah, these commercials are insane.
Christian:
Yeah.
Leo:
Yeah. I think that’s another thing is reminding yourself that people like Derrick Sam, France also do commercials and like seeing, you know, you gotta eat. I think that for a long time, I was very, like, I had friends that like, oh, you can’t—you’re selling out to the commercial world. And it’s like, well, I mean, it’s not really selling out, it’s kind of buying yourself a little bit of time. I mean, you’re buying yourself time, I heard Ian Pons Jewell to talk about this actually, like on a podcast like a few years ago. And it was like, you have to be like time-rich, you know, you have to like have a lifestyle where you could go do commercials and then buy yourself a super expensive car. And then you’re like, No, I have to sustain this lifestyle where I’m living very lavishly. Or you can say I’m gonna have a very low overhead and like, try to just give myself as much time as I can to work on the things that I want to work on. Yeah. And I think that that’s very important to remember. And, you know, you can say, I’m not going to do commercials, and be a purist about it, and I respect that as well. But I think it is an opportunity to work with people that you might otherwise not get a chance to work with. And also just to hone the craft, you know, it’s a craft at the end of the day that you have to like sharpen.
Christian:
Yeah, that’s always what I try to tell people who are like, ‘I can’t do freelance. Freelance is scary. I got kids.’ It’s very similar to what Ian says, in terms of the time. Like, how much do you need a month? And then figure out a way. All you need really is like, how much do you need, you need three months of time, because you’ll get another job within that three months. All you need is one job to buy yourself this amount of time to get ahead, and then a little bit more ahead and then a little bit more ahead. And it’s less daunting that way, when you think about it. All you really need is just one opportunity that you could create for yourself. You know what I mean?
Leo:
It’s a balance, you know. I did a lot of couch-surfing for a while in New York and LA. and it’s not easy. it’s definitely a career that can take a toll on you, for sure. But I think it’s like, if you love it, if you’re doing it for the right reasons, you’re gonna love it, right?
Christian:
If you’re obsessed with it.
Leo:
Like, if you’re just doing it for like fame, then I don’t think you should do it.
Christian:
There’s other outlets for that—there’s TikTok.
Leo:
But if you’re doing it because you love it and it’s what you want to do with your life, then you’ll you’ll do it—no question about it.
Christian:
I see that in your work. And I see that with you just the way you talk, man. You’ve inspired me today. I hope you inspire other people through this and thanks for coming in.
Leo:
Thank you. Appreciate it.
